From Starbucks barista to executive, Paul Johnson’s career journey has taken many paths. Today, he is VP of People and Culture and Chief Diversity Officer for the Seattle Symphony Orchestra. In this episode of People and Strategy, Johnson shares his insights on redefining traditional leadership paradigms, the role of continuous learning, and the differences between HR roles in the for-profit and nonprofit sectors.
From Starbucks barista to executive, Paul Johnson’s career journey has taken many paths. Today, he is VP of People and Culture and Chief Diversity Officer for the Seattle Symphony Orchestra. In this episode of People and Strategy, Johnson shares his insights on redefining traditional leadership paradigms, the role of continuous learning, and the differences between HR roles in the for-profit and nonprofit sectors.
Note: All views expressed are the writer’s own and do not necessarily reflect the view of the Seattle Symphony Orchestra.
Follow People and Strategy wherever you listen to podcasts; rate and review on Spotify and Apple Podcasts.
Learn more about the SHRM Executive Network.
Mo Fathelbab:
Welcome to today's episode of People and Strategy. I'm your host, Mo Fathelbab, President of International Facilitators Organization. People and Strategy is a podcast from the SHRM Executive Network, the premier network of executives and thought leaders in the field of human resources. People and Strategy is the podcast delivering in-depth conversations with HR executives and people leaders to advance the field of human resources by providing engagement and thought leadership to senior executives.
In today's episode, we'll be devoting time to the topic of opening doors in the workplace. For this conversation, I'm excited to be joined by Dr. Paul Johnson, VP of People and Culture, and Chief Diversity Officer at the Seattle Symphony Orchestra, where he oversees both HR and diversity initiatives for the nonprofit organization. Paul, welcome to People and Strategy podcast.
Paul Johnson:
Thank you for having me.
Mo Fathelbab:
Great to have you with us. So Paul, I want to start with your career story because it's a great example of how networking matters. You became a barista to advance mission, becoming an exec leader. Can you tell us a bit about your background from Starbucks barista to executive?
Paul Johnson:
Yeah, it's a really interesting story, in my opinion. I really had no intention at first, when I became a barista I really was thinking of ways that I could help the organization I was working for at the time, I was a marketing manager with Junior Achievement, a national nonprofit that partnered companies and schools. Really, pairing executives from different organizations, different companies with students at different schools. And Starbucks was a company that I was really wanting to engage at the time, and this goes back about 20 years ago.
And what I learned is that Starbucks tends to support things that their employees are involved in or what Starbucks calls their partners, or their employees. And once I learned that they really supported the initiatives that their partners were involved in, I decided to take a part-time job on the weekend as a barista, which gave me greater insight to how the company operated, but also put me in touch with several people within the organization. And they were really in high-growth mode at the time, building several stores each week. By taking that job as a barista and working on the weekends, again, I was able to meet some new people within the company to help them understand what I was trying to do within Junior Achievement.
And from there, eventually they offered me a job in their staffing department and I had an opportunity to make a bigger difference within or inside of the company. So, took that job and ended up staying there for 13 years doing various jobs throughout that time.
Mo Fathelbab:
And you also had a stint at Boeing, if I understand correctly, and I'm sure you had some incredible leadership lessons while you were there.
Paul Johnson:
Yeah, I mean actually, two different stints at Boeing. It was my first role out of college, I took a job there. Similarly, kind of happen chance, everything I find is really interconnected in some ways, because as an eighth grade student growing up in the Seattle area, I had a volunteer, ironically who works for Junior Achievement, who took me on a tour to Boeing as an eighth grader. Took my entire eighth grade class, and we had a chance to see that Boeing had a lot more going on than just building airplanes. They had their own physicians, their own fire and security team. It just opened my eyes up to all the different possibilities of careers and jobs that existed within the company.
And when I graduated from undergrad, I had a lot of experience speaking to groups because my part-time job as a college student was as a tour guide. So I actually accepted a job as a tour guide with the Boeing company right out of undergrad and stayed in that role for about five years, which was a great way to learn a lot about the company. And then did another stint just about, I actually left the company for about 13 years, then returned and worked again in their human resources function. So yes, two stints at Boeing and really again, helped me learn a lot about the company and was able to see some different facets of the company from different angles.
Mo Fathelbab:
And I am also struck by your experience both in the for-profit and nonprofit world. Are there any immediate differences that you can point to between the two as an HR leader?
Paul Johnson:
Yeah, I mean, I think there are. I think for me, mostly it's the idea that... Really, it's I'd say in the nonprofit, there's a lot of developing as I go, or I won't say developing, but it's taking what I've learned in the for-profit industry and trying to bring it in. Of course, a lot of nonprofits aren't structured in a way where they can have robust teams with hundreds of people doing human resource work. Whereas at Starbucks and Boeing, very large for-profit companies, there were various people doing a lot of different jobs. So, really specialized I would say as an HR leader, you tend to be more of a specialist when you work at a large for-profit organization. And within a nonprofit organization, you tend to be more of a generalist where you're doing everything. So you're staffing, you just do it all within a nonprofit. So I would say those are probably the two biggest differences that jump out at me, a generalist to a specialist.
Mo Fathelbab:
Yeah, thank you. Thank you for that. So I want to transition to coaching and your diverse workforce. I know that's an area that's meaningful for you. And maybe just for those that don't know, maybe you could define that for us first.
Paul Johnson:
So when we think of neuro diversity in the workplace, I mean, neuro diversity can show up in a lot of different ways, but the area that I've been most focused on is executive function disorder. And executive function disorder has to do with your brain maybe not operating in getting information out to those you're working with, the way you would want them to get out. So sometimes it's kind of maybe for some people a brain fog or not being able to communicate their thoughts. Sometimes you may have someone in a meeting who can share their thoughts right away. Some people may need processing time, where they may need to think about it, but it really can show up in a lot of different ways.
But I think from a executive functioning disorder standpoint, it really is understanding that your brain doesn't operate the way the majority of your co-workers may operate, and that you may need extra time or you may need written instructions. You may need extra assistance, just again, an accommodation, but I think the best way to understand this as an employer is to talk to the employee and find out what their needs are. And they're usually able to share what it is that they need, whether, again, that is processing time. We tend to sit in meetings and we want people to answer right away or to have results right away with what they need. And for someone, they may need that extra time to come back to you and explain what they really want or how they would go about completing a project or whatever it might be.
For some people, they really need that lead time of five or six weeks and have everything in the project that you want, whereas some people, if you give them 13 things to do, it may actually be more harmful because they don't know where to start. If you give 13 things, they may need three things at a time, and they still can do all 13, but they would prefer to have three things today, three things tomorrow, three things the following day, versus giving them a list on day one, because they may tackle something on that list that you may not feel as a priority as a manager or a boss and you may want them to leave that until later. But the way their brain operates might tell them that that's the most important thing on that list. And so again, it's just understanding what their needs are and trying to accommodate those needs when possible.
Mo Fathelbab:
So I want to transition into coaching in neuro diverse workforce, and I'll love for you to tell us more about what that means just to get us started.
Paul Johnson:
Yeah. Well, I definitely, as the HR leader here with the symphony, I also wear a second hat, which is Chief Diversity Officer. One, because I have a lot of experience working in DEI, in diversity, equity and inclusion, but also because it's a great passion of mine. And like so many people working in diversity, equity, and inclusion, there's definitely a great passion around making sure that we support historically marginalized groups, women, people of color.
But a group of individuals that I'm starting to learn more about and I've kind of taken, I guess a passion around learning more about, are people with neuro diversity, or people who just operate differently than others. And the connection that I've made in recent times is that we have, I mean, if you do the research, you'll find that close to 13, 14% of all students in K through 12 schools receive some sort of special education services. And ultimately, that population ends up in the US workforce. Many of them will end up in a US workforce and many of them already work in the US workforce. And we tend to forget that they're here. And so trying to find ways to accommodate this group of individuals has been, again, a growing passion of mine.
I think we tend to think that we can spot neuro diversity when we see it, and sometimes it's invisible. It's typically not something that a manager or a co-worker may notice. It may be something as like mild dyslexia, it could be ADHD, it could be executive functioning disorder, where people just have trouble organizing their thoughts.
So it's not always, the way it shows up doesn't always show up the same way when we see it, but I think as leaders and as managers in the workforce, it's important for us to try to find ways to be more inclusive of this group and really put them in positions to succeed, because what I've learned is that there's a lot of talent, and really, it's not that this group is... They're considered sometimes, we call it a disability, but I like to call it an ability because what I've learned working with scientists in the aerospace industry or working with artists in my current role, some of the most talented and gifted people I've met tend to operate maybe a little differently than the majority. But it's not that they have a lack of ability, they just go about doing their work in slightly different ways. But as scientists and artists, they're extremely gifted and can contribute in great ways to the workforce.
So I've again just made it a mission to try to learn more and find ways of being more welcoming and inclusive to this group.
Mo Fathelbab:
Amazing. I think that's wonderful, and I applaud you for that. How does it differ, how does it show up differently for onsite versus remote work?
Paul Johnson:
I think in some ways, I mean, we learned a lot I think through the pandemic. As we went through, we found, of course, a lot of people were forced to work remotely, and I think a lot of individuals learned things about themselves in terms of how they operate. Some learned that they do operate better when they're in a structured environment where they have to be in an office or have to be in a space where people are giving instructions throughout the day and putting together lists for them to work from. Whereas again, it's a diversity of thought, it's neuro diverse.
So there are some people who we found work better when they're isolated, when they have earphones on listening to music. Some people can get up at midnight and be very productive from midnight through 4:00 AM in the morning, and they tend not to maybe operate as well early in the morning. And we know that some businesses aren't in a position to accommodate that sort of flexibility, but when it's possible, if you're an employer and you can find ways to again, make your employees more successful and in accommodate their needs, I think it's important to try to find ways to make that work. And so that remote work and finding that people can be productive if they work certain hours or in a certain cadence can help them be more productive, then it only helps the entire team that you're working with.
Mo Fathelbab:
Absolutely, I could see that. Any tips for peer HR leaders looking to support employees in the workplace with neuro diverse issues?
Paul Johnson:
Yeah, again, I would say really, it's just going beyond sort of ADA requirements. I mean, we know that we have the Americans with Disabilities Act that we are required to follow, but I think if employers can go beyond that and really listen to what employees are... I think employees have become a little more comfortable with coming forth and requesting accommodations. And sometimes as employers, we want these employees to come in with notes from their doctors or we request that they have a lot of validation for whatever it is they need.
And again, understandably, sometimes you do need that, particularly if it's a costly accommodation that you're really having to implement. But if it's something you can do simply as an employer and you don't really require a note from a doctor, then I say just do it. If it's earphones, somebody wants to listen. I mean, we have more employees who might have their ear pods on or AirPods listening to music throughout the day. And if that helps them become more productive, I don't see the reason why you would need a note from a doctor to accommodate that. So I think it's things like that. Really listening and being open to what employees need to be successful. It's probably probably the most common sense thing to do.
But again, I understand that all businesses can't operate that way and you have people who are in roles where they can't have earphones because of safety, or they're in a position where they're sitting at a front desk and they need to be able to be aware of customers who are coming in. But if you have employees who you can accommodate those needs for them, maybe it's that they need a list of things. It's really a lot of things that we already do as HR leaders. Coming up with smart goals where employees can really understand what it is that they're being asked for. But the thing I like about it is that typically, they're universally helpful tools. I mean, things that you do for this group, if you implement these sort of things, it tends to help everyone because for someone who needs the ability to monitor that can enlarge print, that's something that can help everyone, whether you have a disability or not.
And for example, when we think about disabilities, we know that there's close to about 13, 14% of the people in our workforce who have some sort of disability. But as we all know, this is the one group that any of us can join at any given time. None of us are immune from joining a group with disabilities. And that goes for neuro diversity, because there are reasons why people in a workforce fall into this category. Could be through an accident, some sort of accident that you have later in life or some sort of brain function that shifts over the years. So again, being able to accommodate this group of people tends to help everyone.
Mo Fathelbab:
Yeah, I love that. I love that, thank you. Paul. Let's talk about how neuro diversity shows up in leadership. Some leaders might be better off one-on-one versus in big groups, some might need more time to process. How have you experienced or seen neuro diversity in leadership?
Paul Johnson:
Yeah. Well, again, it goes to diversity. It really is understanding that all leaders aren't the same. You have some leaders who are sort of the rah-rah leader, they can get a team, they can give the pep speech and get a team to run through a brick wall for them. Whereas you have some leaders who are quiet and they lead more by example. And you have some leaders who have that high EQ or emotional intelligence, where they listen and they check for understanding with their employees, and they empathize really well with their staff and their teams, and they understand their own blind spots. They have that great personal self awareness.
And so I think when I work with leaders as an HR leader and being a business partner, I see all of these different types in my management teams that I support, and all of them can be effective. But I think as leaders, you have to understand that and not expect all your leaders to look the same way. And I think we have a tendency to create the prototype of what we think a leader looks like, even from visually or how tall they should be and how they should walk and how they should dress. And we've learned over time that, again, not all leaders lead in the same way, and you can be effective in various different ways. You don't have to, all leaders don't lead the same way, and various leaders can still be effective with different styles.
Mo Fathelbab:
Yeah, of course. Any tips for your peer HR leaders who are looking to grow while having these experiences?
Paul Johnson:
Again, I go back to emotional intelligence. I think listening, understanding weaknesses and gaps that you may have, but I think it's continuous learning. For me, that's been something at the time when I was, now I can look back on it and know that all the education and all the classes that I've taken are beneficial. But when I was going through it, it didn't feel that way because I was giving up my weekends and my evenings while I was in class and studying. And it felt like, why am I doing this? Am I wasting my time? But I can now tell that a lot of the information that I took in over the years has really helped me as a leader in the HR field.
Mo Fathelbab:
And you just a minute ago mentioned that maybe there's pressure for executives to show up in a certain way, walk a certain way, dress a certain way. Do you feel like that pressure still exists today?
Paul Johnson:
Oh, certainly. I definitely think that that pressure is there. It may always be there, but I think if you have leaders and CEOs and senior leaders who are more receptive and again, they understand their own emotional intelligence, they become more open to different styles that... And they can lead by example as well and people who work for them follow their lead. I've been fortunate to work for some great leaders who have had various styles in the way they lead, and I now sort of look for that in the leaders that I go to work for. That they're not necessarily looking for just a prototype, that they are able to get the most out of individuals, again, by leveraging the differences that those individuals bring to the workplace.
Mo Fathelbab:
I love it, I love it. So with all this leadership experience, Paul, I'm wondering, what is your leadership strategy/philosophy?
Paul Johnson:
I would say for me it's really leaving things better than how you found them, is sort of my mantra. I've worked at a lot of different large organizations and smaller organizations, and I realize you don't always get credit for implementing new things that you bring there or working on projects that you work on. But if you can look back on those organizations years after and feel like you left them in a better place than when you got there, you can feel good about it and understand that you can contributed. And so for me, that's really been my goal everywhere I've worked, is to just try to leave it better than how I found it.
Mo Fathelbab:
I think that is beautiful and simple and easy to resonate with. Right? How do I leave it better than I found it? I think that that's just great. Thank you.
So when talking about HR's future, the focus is typically on what's new, but change isn't just about embracing what's new, it's also means shedding assumptions, practices that are outdated, perhaps. Which practices are you or your organization revisiting or discarding to make room and move forward? And just as a plug, this is going to be the topic of our upcoming fall issue of People and Strategy Journal. So a little primer here. Thank you, Paul.
Paul Johnson:
Okay. Yeah, I think there is a tendency to just stick with what we've done for years and years, and a lot of times there's that old adage of, if it's not broke, don't fix it. But we do need to reexamine things that we've done. And we've been on autopilot for a lot in a lot of processes and policies that we have.
I'd say probably the thing that comes up for us a lot and something we discuss is really just time off. Employees, I think there's a tendency for organizations to say, "Hey, we give you all these holidays. You get Christmas and you get Thanksgiving." Those big holidays that we tend to celebrate, and we know that not every individual celebrates the same holidays, and those holidays may not work for everyone. And again, I understand that for some organizations it's impossible to have flexibility there, because I've worked in manufacturing where you can't. For a large manufacturing operations, it's important that when you shut down, you shut down, because you can't have just some people there and some people not working. So for example, at Boeing, when they would shut down, they would shut down for those holidays because they can't operate at 50% of staff being there.
But if you're in an organization that can have flexibility and allow individuals to take off the days that they need to take off that accommodate their lifestyle, I say do it. An example of this would be, we had a policy or a practice here where I currently work of during the summers, it's a little slower. So we would shut down the office around 12:00 or noon on Fridays and allow employees to go home early. But we've learned over time that that may not work for everyone, and they may not want that Friday off. They may have childcare situation, just other reasons why they might not want to use their holiday time that way. And again, as an organization, we saw it as a benefit, being able to offer that time off, but instead of forcing employees to take off every Friday afternoon, what we've done now is look that how many hours that comes to.
And for us, it was about 32 hours every summer that we were awarding to employees. But instead of saying, "Take off Friday afternoons," we now allow employees to use those 32 hours when it works best for them. And again, it goes back to diversity, it goes back to flexibility and again, giving employees what they need to make their work-life balance work best for them. And so for us, that's something that we've implemented. We still pretty much celebrate those other major holidays that we have but again, we constantly talk about, are there other things we can do? Instead of just automatically awarding the big holidays that we so often think about and maybe providing more flexibility for employees to use that time when they need it most.
Mo Fathelbab:
Thank you, Paul. Your message is loud and clear and I love it. Last question for you, sir. What is one piece of advice that has shaped your work or your life the most?
Paul Johnson:
For me, it's been continuous learning. I feel like I went to school for a lot of years, but it's like, never stopped learning. It sounds a little cliche, but it really has helped me throughout the years because not only has it helped me by just going to school and learning, but the people that I've met and the networks that I've built through those relationships have been amazing.
Just previous weekend I flew to Las Vegas to attend the football game with some of my doctoral... I actually didn't go with them, but I ended up running into several members of my doctoral program while I was there. And these are people who are now lifelong friends who are in various leadership roles within their organizations, and we talk frequently and try to network. And these are... they may know about someone that I can hire, I might know someone that they can hire. And just having that network really has been helpful for me over the years.
Mo Fathelbab:
Thank you Paul, and that's where we'll end it for this episode of People and Strategy. A huge thanks to Dr. Paul Johnson for his thoughts on coaching and neuro diverse workforce and redefining leadership.
You can follow the People and Strategy podcast wherever you get your podcasts. Also, podcast reviews have a real impact on podcast visibility. So if you enjoyed today's episode, leave a review to help others find the show. Finally, you can find all our episodes on our website at shrm.org/podcasts. Thank you for listening, and have a great day.