People and Strategy

Richard Lui on Selflessness

Episode Summary

Richard Lui, News Anchor with MSNBC and NBC News, is also the author of Enough About Me: The Unexpected Power of Selflessness. In this interview with Tony Lee, Vice President of Content at SHRM, Lui explains how selflessness and positivity can influence the workplace for the better, starting with leadership. (length 27:25)

Episode Notes

Richard Lui, News Anchor with MSNBC and NBC News, is also the author of Enough About Me: The Unexpected Power of Selflessness.

In this interview with Tony Lee, Vice President of Content at SHRM, Lui explains how selflessness and positivity can influence the workplace for the better, starting with leadership. (length 27:25)

Episode Transcription

Tony Lee:

Welcome. I'm Tony Lee, vice president of content for the Society for Human Resource Management and the SHRM Executive Network. The SHRM Executive Network is the premier network of executives and thought leaders in the field of human resources. We advance the HR profession by engaging thought leaders and executive practitioners to create solutions and drive success for people and organizations. I'm excited today to speak with Richard Lui, news anchor with MSNBC and NBC News, and the author of Enough About Me, the Unexpected Power of Selflessness. We'll discuss the selfish pandemic, caregiving, selflessness, and the power of positivity. Richard, thank you so much for being here.

Richard Lui:

Hey Tony, thanks for gathering and digging into this topic.

Tony Lee:

Absolutely. Well, you've had a long and an illustrious career as a journalist, first with CNN, and now MSNBC and NBC news. You've also created an Oscar-qualifying documentary. You've launched six different tech brands. You've secured a fin tech patent. Holy moly. So what's the threat that tied all of these experiences together?

Richard Lui:

You know, I think the one thing that has been definitive for me in the last decade has probably been two things. One, caring for my parents who are in California, and I work in New York. And as my father was diagnosed with Alzheimer's eight years ago, and then more recently, my mother with her orthostasis, which means she has trouble maintaining blood pressure and therefore balance, and falls more often the normal. That has been a major, I think, tent pole in what I've been doing.

And then the other part would certainly be journalism, and what we've lived through as a country and as a world for that matter, and trying to understand why things are happening the way they are. And I think those two are the major tent poles that have driven the sort of content that I like to create, and support, and develop.

Tony Lee:

Yeah. Well, it makes perfect sense. We're going to come back to your parents in a little bit, but first, let's start talking about the core of what you do every day reporting on current events. If you look at the polling out there, there are an awful lot of people who don't trust journalists. They don't trust the networks. They don't trust news, which can really be a study in negativity. So how would you shine a light on the more positive aspect of what journalism is, what journalists do?

Richard Lui:

I think when we look at media writ large, it is a very, very diverse industry set. And we look at journalism and what has been called journalism, that also remains a very diverse industry sub segment with its own micro segments in it, and not even micro, but major. We've lived through the last decade where news was called opinion news, and those two words generally were never put together necessarily. It was either news or was opinion. And then the arc that was most often taken by experienced journalists is that you would report for decades, and then become an op-ed writer or a columnist.

We flipped that around in the last decade, where we were pushing forward content that was often developed by those who had not been journalists for decades and then moved into the opinion space. So those sorts of goal posts, as they were moving, I think evolved what might be seen as news. And news has never been perfect, but it has always worked hard to get the facts right.

There are 70 journalists typically that are killed every year around the world, and they are killed doing the job that they think will bring truth, and facts, and context to important places and important topics. And as a U.S. journalist, I take for granted that ability, that luxury, that honor to be a journalist, when they are putting their lives on the line. Every year, 70 being killed, and I know that they're looking to the United States as one of those beacons for journalism.

So when we look at those polls, we got some work to do to close the gap on what is versus what the perception is. And the reality are those 70 journalists that die every year. That facts are expensive, not only in life, but in money, and we have confused some of the terms and culture. We have. That goes without saying,

Tony Lee:

Right. I've been around long enough that I remember that you had a handful of choices of network news and not the choices that you have today.

Richard Lui:

Right.

Tony Lee:

And there wasn't really a partisan network. I mean, the networks were all unbiased, and they all presented the news as the news. And obviously things have changed, but I think negativity kind of comes out of people who were watching the news looking for an unbiased approach and getting what they feel like might be more biased, or actually playing to their own biases. So how does that negativity affect the world of consumers of news? Is it something that you think we can work beyond, or is this the way things are?

Richard Lui:

Yes, we can work beyond it. We're sort of information millionaires right now, and we don't know what to do with all this wealth. If you just look at the amount of information that we have had, it's basically doubled every election cycle, every presidential election cycle. And that is staggering, the amount of information available to us, but like a lot of those instant jackpot winners that we return back to after five or 10 years, they don't have a nickel to their name.

And so like that, I hope we don't become that. We will hopefully get smart at what to do with all this information, as opposed to saying one size fits all. I guess we used to have librarians, right, that would show us how to handle information, how to find it, how to categorize it. Well, we really don't have that function in our educational system the way we did at another point in recent history. And I think that with the number, as I was just saying, doubling every four years, well, boy, do we need help with that now more than ever to understand what the information is and how to use it.

Tony Lee:

So let's take that and apply it to the workplace, which is where our listeners are focusing their attention. Business leaders are grappling with how to address partisan discussions in the workplace between employees, taking it a step further and discuss racial injustice and all of the things that we've learned since the George Floyd murder last year. So what advice do you have for business leaders who are trying to manage this within the walls of their businesses?

Richard Lui:

There are some things that are opinion, and appropriate for industrial conversations or in business. And there are those that may not be so clear as a conversation that you might have in the workplace. In the last year, as I have done dozens of discussions with investment banks, with the likes of Walmart, and Verizon, and Goldman, and others, is that we are now reaching a place where we have to definitely talk about what it means to have a certain color of skin.

And when we look at the opportunities to discuss it in ways that are productive, not extreme, very honest and vulnerable, those have been what I've noticed as I've had these different discussions. And we've seen the actions being taken by corporate America, and for that matter, around the world, that they're undertaking plans, and steps, and investments in places that they haven't done typically.

So I think that when it comes to the issue of George Floyd and race, and in my case, since I'm of Asian descent, and I'm an Asian-American Pacific Islander, that we are addressing it, I think in a great way. And we're just ha having the right kind of discussion. The next thing to watch is what will business do in terms of the investments they make. Who will be in the board in the next cycle? Who will be moved up into the corner offices, and the CXO ranks?

Because we are not seeing that right now, and the one thing that cannot be ignored is that shareholders and investors are seeing that. And now it is more in front than ever. And there are other ways to get to that outcome as an organization, as being a corporate citizen, because operating as a business now, more than ever, there are no social impact businesses anymore.

Every business is a social impact business, and whether it is B2B or B2C, or B2G, whatever the case may be, they are all looking quite intently at the way businesses and organizations are being run. And some of the opportunities in front, if the organization's culture is ready for it, is to figure out where do you help the community-based organizations all across the country, in the space that you might be interested in? How do you help those community-based organizations be better? Because when they're better, we have a better culture, and we have better society. And right now, whether you're a B, or a G, or a C, you are looking at your partners as to whether or not they are thinking that way.

And this is, I think, in the discussions we've had, Tony, in the last year that I've been a part of, we're hearing the right questions and we're hearing the right hungry ears. And so that's really, really positive. So the next year or two, we're going to see what happens. And then in 10 years, we'll see what the history books say, what industry did or did not.

Tony Lee:

Now well said, Richard, thank you. I appreciate that. And I think that's a perfect segue to selflessness, because you've seen a lot of employees over the last year kind of put their own needs aside and say, "I'm interested in the greater good. I'm going to go protest, or I'm going to reach out and help people who aren't as fortunate as I am." Are you seeing that as well? Do you think we're seeing a level of selflessness that wasn't there before?

Richard Lui:

I think what we're seeing, whatever the industrial revolution 4.0 is going to be, and there's been a lot of debate about what that's going to be. You know, some have said it's automation. Some have said automation's 3.5. I do believe that globally, since we've lived through this shock to the system about caring for other people, because of the pandemic, is that 4.0 has already changed. And how has industry changed in the last year and a half? Well, in my business, over at 30 Rockefeller Plaza, we went down to four or 5% of our headcount. We put in systems of broadcasting so that we didn't have to be in the building, and we're talking about broadcast television, where we have floor directors and camera operators and everything else, but we figured it out. And we were able to keep to a great degree the head count along the way.

And network news is not the only place that went through this. And so I do believe that that very system that was developed, that we had to get out information to the country, that we had to take care of our own. And the sorts of systems that were put in place of, is your family okay? If it's not, call this number, Those are very selfless structures and business processes. The case studies that will come out of the great business schools like Harvard and Ross, go blue, will certainly be different in the coming year. I do believe those new case studies are a reflection of 4.0, a real opportunity for us to rethink the way that organizations and their team members live and exist together. That, I think, is what has not been defined or codified, but it's happening. It's already been happening for a year and a half.

I'm excited about what 4.0 is going to be. This is the real change, I think, of our business lifetime up to this date outside of 3.0, obviously, with what we saw in the digital space. But this one is really potentially a huge opportunity, a tsunami in a good way of what business could be.

Tony Lee:

Now, I don't know how much time you spend thinking about generational differences, but SHRM research is showing that the younger millennials and Gen Z are taking a different approach to the types of employers they choose, and the type of work they want to do. And frankly, selflessness seems to be a component that they're thinking about that previous generations really didn't. So how do you see that manifesting itself, and are companies going to change to accommodate this desire?

Richard Lui:

And it's not only the year you were born, it's the year that you are living in and investing in, in terms of being open to the ideas and the health of the economy at that time. So although that is the age group that might believe all businesses are social impact businesses, I think after the pandemic... But we probably went up to 80% now of most employees believing all businesses should be social impact businesses, and therefore the very distinction almost fades away.

And the fact that Y and Z would like that, if you ask them, they're not going to say that it's, oh, I like social impact businesses. No, they're going to say, I want businesses to be living, breathing, caring entities, and they're not going to sub-categorize ideologically, I don't believe. And so, when we think of the systems that might happen because of that, it's profitable to be a selfless organization.

The very function of marketing itself is a selfless function. It is finding out what the needs are of others, and trying to satisfy them, and to develop the solutions as you arm product development in marketing and sales to get it there. The very basis of when we're out and we're thinking of how we might work through those particular business departments is, "How may I help you?" And I think we're at a point today where we're really thinking about "how may I help you." Before it was, "What may I sell you?" And look, that's still going to be there, but I think we're really thinking about this in a way that is at the core of what makes the society better when we create a product or service that helps people to the very core.

Tony Lee:

And it's interesting, because you bring up a point that applies very specifically to how some companies have been changing in terms of helping their employees help themselves and help their families, as you have done of late. There's a huge talent shortage out there, and companies are doing everything they can to attract and retain employees. And often time, that means if they hadn't offered full paid leave before, they do now. If they hadn't offered mental health assistance before, they do now, and they help employees who have parents who are struggling with issues take the time they need and have the flexibility they need. Maybe share a little bit more about your situation and how it came about.

Richard Lui:

As I was mentioning, I was caring for my parents for the last eight years and traveling. From New York to California probably has got me up to a quarter million to 300,000 miles a year, and this along with my travel for work. Caring for a family member, when we look at the numbers of 53 million people, and that's a huge jump from the previous study that was done by AARP and others, and that's worth half a trillion dollars in economic value, half a trillion in economic value that is unrecognized. And all 53 million family caregivers are untrained and unpaid.

And that reality is still not understood culturally, but felt, I believe certainly, industrially. And Harvard Business School, excuse me, who dug into the very cost showed invest in your mid to high level team members. They're the ones that are most likely going to lose efficiency, efficacy, and you will see them leave their jobs because of caring for a loved one.

And they're the most expensive to retain and hire, as you were just alluding to. And that very study, I thought, really put the data point on what we all knew was happening, because those who are in that particular age group are making the right decisions, but difficult decisions. And as an organization, we want to support them. The way that that can happen, when I started looking into caregiving ERGs, they're hard to find. But I'm finding in the seven years I've been talking about caregiving that businesses are... You're seeing more and more caregiving ERGs, and these caregiving ERGs are not to create new benefits.

These caregiving ERGs start only just to be a place that says, "We're all living through this." There are 5 million young caregivers in America, 17 and younger. There are about 24, 25 million millennial and younger caregivers in America. So it's not only a certain age group. I go back to that, but culturally, businesses by creating those sorts of ERGs, I think is an opportunity to be part of being more selfless. Because what you're seeing is your employees at those levels are being selfless by caring for family.

Tony Lee:

Talk a little bit about your own work/life balance. You're in an incredibly stressful, very demanding job, and yet here you are caring for your dad for all those years, and now your mom as well. I assume your employer was understanding and made allowances.

Richard Lui:

Yeah, they did. And I laugh, because I walked into the office when I was talking to Vet Miley thinking, she was... Love her, but she's also a business person. She's got to run a news organization. And I walked in thinking she was going to say, "Richard, you know you have an eight-day-a-week job. You know I need to be able to send you to stories wherever they may be. And so we got to let you go, if you can't be here for that." She said, "Let's figure out a way so that you can still be part of our organization, and still be a good team member and add value."

And so the way that turned out, she said, "How about you work three days? You can fly back to California and take care of your dad, who's living with Alzheimer's. And then the other three days, you're ours." And I was like, you don't have three-day-a-week anchor jobs, but she did it. And I think that as we, for a moment, think about our leadership positions, those little decisions can be huge.

I was writing in my book to her, a little note to my boss, Yvette, and sometimes when you write these notes, you have to stop and think, okay, what do I want to write in that note? Would I say this or that? I didn't have to pause. It said, "Dear Yvette, thank you for changing my life." And that's a big statement, but it was true. Because not only was able to take care of my dad, but then I wrote a book, and now have a feature documentary that is about young caregivers. I wouldn't have ever thought to do that, except for her opening up the idea we can live, and work, and thrive despite some of the difficulties. And we can do it despite the difficulty with great aptitude and joy along the way, too, unexpected joy, if I can be so bold to use that word.

Tony Lee:

But what a win-win, for everyone. They retain a talented, valued employee like you, and you get to continue to do what you love and care for your dad. Everybody wins.

Richard Lui:

But Tony, but you got to think about it. If I walked into your office, you might go, "Well, do I set a precedent here? Do we don't do this?" They didn't know that I was going to go on and have a feature documentary or a book with Harper Collins. They didn't know that. But I think that was, as I've been talking about it, is that those little decisions can be huge. And if we help them through it, they can really provide, as you were just saying, unknown value to your organization and to society.

Tony Lee:

All right. So here's kind of the key question. Larger organizations tend to have the flexibility to operate this way, because they have resources. If you're not available seven days a week, only three, well, there's always someone else who can step in, because they can afford to have someone else. So if you're talking to a smaller to mid-size company, which as you know, the vast majority of employers in this country are, and their response is, "Yeah, we'd really like to help you out. But boy, this is tough." What advice would you give? Is there a way that you think smaller companies can accommodate caregivers and folks who need to spend time with their parents in this case?

Richard Lui:

I've been a journalist now for full time for 15 years, before that was in business for 15. My last job was at Citibank, but I've been involved in probably five or six small businesses in really the technology field in different types of technology since the 1990s. And I write about it in the book. One of my mentors, Mike Breslin, had a company when I joined that was eight people. And when I left, it was 50, and he created... Which I know is very expensive. And I'm really going to respond to your question in not specifically the caregiving space, but in the caring space, in the selfless organization space. Because every organization is going to have their own character and their own culture.

He decided to take zero pay for a year during one of the recessions, and we all are asked to take a 30% pay cut. He didn't say that he was taking more than 30. He did not say he was going down to zero. He decided later on, when we got past that recession, that he was going to create a 401k program for his company, where only at that time 35 people. Who creates a 401k at a headcount of 35? He was also the person that whenever you would go into his office, you'd sit down. And I know, Tony, what he was doing, but all of a sudden, you'd be talking to him. And all of a sudden, his seat would go down by about six inches. He was about six-two, and I'm five-10. And he would do that every time.

And as I got to know my boss better, I was like, are you doing that to see if we will react, that we'll laugh? Or is it just try to goose us, right, to figure out what's happening? And in the end he said, "No, it's because I want to see you eye to eye." So I think the idea of where we can take care of our teams is going to be unique and cultural to the leaders in that organization that are, I think, honest and vulnerable. And when it comes to the caregiving dynamic, there are all sorts of flavors of caregivers. And the one way that we can learn better to help in that situation, create potentially or join a caregiving ERG. Create a small one. Join one of the ones that exist at the Alzheimer's association or AARP. Reach out to those sorts of local groups if it's caregiver-specific. But I began the answer to the question being much more broad, and I hope you're fine with that, Tony, by saying, when we think about the selfless organization, there's the little things of lowering your chair, and the other big things too.

Tony Lee:

Well, you hit it right on the head. Richard, thank you. And at this stage, I have to say, we've reached the end of our time. I want to thank you so much for joining us. I thought you shared some fascinating information, and I want to encourage everyone listening to check out Enough About Me, the Unexpected Power of Selflessness by Richard Lui. Richard, thank you so much for joining us.

Richard Lui:

Tony, thank you so much, and the very practice of being selfless in an organization is very important. And it pays off. We have dug into that in that very chapter about how efficiency goes up by 50% when you have selfless leaders, how you double your earnings over a 14-year period when you are a selfless leader. And the point is, we should be doing some of these things just because it's the right value, but there's some real tangible returns on this investment, as big an idea as it is, but there are some very low-level practical outcomes from it.

Tony Lee:

Well, appreciate that. And you've whet the listener's appetite to get a copy of your book and learn more. So Richard, thank you so much for sharing your expertise with us today, and for more information on selflessness, and on leadership, and other important topics to the executives in the HR field, please check out the SHRM Executive Network, which you can visit at shrm.org/executive. Thank you again for joining us.