Using data-driven insights can help create higher performing teams. In this episode of People and Strategy, Wendy Miller, chief people officer at McKinsey & Company, discusses the power of people analytics to help HR executives and business leaders solve problems, AI’s potential impact, and more.
Using data-driven insights can help create higher performing teams. In this episode of People and Strategy, Wendy Miller, chief people officer at McKinsey & Company, discusses the power of people analytics to help HR executives and business leaders solve problems, AI’s potential impact, and more.
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Mo Fathelbab:
Welcome to today's episode of People and Strategy Podcast. I'm your host, Mo Fathelbab, president of International Facilitators Organization. People and Strategy is the podcast from the SHRM Executive Network, the premier network for executives and thought leaders in the field of human resources. People and Strategy is the podcast delivering in-depth conversations with HR executives and people leaders to advance the field of human resources by providing engagement and thought leadership to senior executives. In today's episode, we'll be devoting time to the topic of teamwork as a science. For this conversation, I'm pleased to be joined by Wendy Miller, Chief People Officer at McKinsey & Company, where she shapes and manages the firm's people strategy, processes, and professional teams. During her 19 years at McKinsey's people function, Wendy has built and overseen and integrated team with responsibility for recruiting, professional development, evaluations and reviews, learning, and human resources. She partners globally to design the firm's regional people strategy, employee value proposition and experience, including the diversity and inclusion strategy and shift towards stronger development culture. Wendy, welcome to People and Strategy.
Wendy Miller:
Hi, it's so nice to be here. Thanks for having me.
Mo Fathelbab:
Great to be with you. Thank you. So Wendy, you have obviously had an amazing career. Can you walk us through the journey of how you got to this position at McKinsey & Company?
Wendy Miller:
Yes, I would love to. So I joined McKinsey & Company out of business school as a consultant, and spent the first few years of my career playing the role of a traditional McKinsey consultant serving teams and clients. And then in 2004 shifted over to professional development, and so I moved from the consulting space into the people space and played a role where you counseled and gave staffing advice to our younger tenured colleagues as they got started on their career. I've been super privileged to have the opportunity to grow in that role and to expand what I was doing in the people space. So went from being a professional development manager to leading our southern office team, and then a few years ago stepping into the regional people leader or chief people officer for North America.
Mo Fathelbab:
Amazing. That was a quick, quick journey, but certainly took many years, yeah?
Wendy Miller:
Oh, for sure. I think it sounds, maybe I gave you a quick summary. It was 19 years in the people space, and so I started very focused on the professional development side, which was giving people advice around how do they grow and develop, how do they get staffed onto teams, how do they figure out how to be a great professional? And then over time added in responsibilities around recruiting and our learning and development, the AD&I strategy, and our human resources team. And so each role gave me an opportunity to expand the breadth and the depth of the work that I was doing. And then I continue to counsel our colleagues from the beginning of their career through to our partners and senior partners. And so really different range of professionals as far as giving advice and counsel.
Mo Fathelbab:
I'm curious what you see as a difference in advising the younger professionals versus those that are more senior and more established at the firm.
Wendy Miller:
Well, there's a lot of things that are the same. So there is an element of, what are the challenges that you're facing, what are the strengths that you already bring to bear, and how do we think about helping you tackle those issues so that you can be your best self? I think many folks spend time thinking about how do they be their best selves professionally? And I really believe that you have to have a well-rounded life. And so if we could think about how do you craft a life that is both professionally and personally rewarding, you get a better outcome.
But as you think about the younger tenured colleagues, they're getting started. They're figuring out the toolkit is the word we use around what are the skills that you need to bear to be a successful consultant? And then how do you work? How do you show up? How do you build a network? How do you think about getting sponsors and mentors? And then pretty quickly, excuse me, it moves towards how do you shape your professional development? So what kind of professional do you want to be? How do you want to grow and develop on that journey? And then for our more senior folks, the challenges are a little different in the sense of what mark do they want to have? What's their legacy? How do you think about really going from good to great and being distinctive in their craft?
Mo Fathelbab:
Wonderful, thank you. So at SHRM '24, you spoke about teamwork as a science. Can you tell us more about that?
Wendy Miller:
Yes, yes. It was my privilege to speak at the SHRM conference. It was an amazing group of people and a very engaged audience.
Mo Fathelbab:
It's an amazing, yes they are.
Wendy Miller:
Yes. I found it to be quite rewarding. So teamwork as a science, if I just define it for a second, teamwork as a science is the idea that I know how to craft a team. I used to be able to understand who the colleagues were, what their performance was, what they needed to solve a problem. But as the world has become more complex and we have a more diverse set of colleagues, we have a bigger firm, we have a broader set of client and needs, this is the idea of how do you bring in data and analytics so that you can think about crafting a better performing team to have higher impact for our clients. So it's pairing all of the experience and intuition that you have on what makes a good performer with some rituals around how we work together, and then measuring that outcome and pulling that together to continue to iterate to craft stronger teams.
Mo Fathelbab:
So what are some of those rituals?
Wendy Miller:
So we have called those rituals the way we work rituals, and we've crafted a playbook where we would then arm our managers with rituals of how a team should work. There are four major components. One is a kickoff, and so the team would come together and spend time talking about what is the purpose of the work we're going to do? What are the goals we're going to achieve? How do we want to work together? The second thing we talk about are these one-on-ones. And so the team sets up one-on-one conversations with one another so that you can give feedback, have check-ins, and create the cadence where you can tackle the problems.
Mo Fathelbab:
So they give feedback to one another as to how they're working together effectively, or not.
Wendy Miller:
Exactly. I don't know if you know much about McKinsey, but we love feedback.
Mo Fathelbab:
I love feedback.
Wendy Miller:
You love feedback?
Mo Fathelbab:
I love feedback.
Wendy Miller:
Well, that's good.
Mo Fathelbab:
That's how we grow.
Wendy Miller:
That's how we grow. And so we are a robust feedback culture, and I think the more all organizations can do to create a cadence where that is natural and just part of the vocabulary, part of the way you work, you take some of the emotion out of it and make it so that you're not coming together for feedback only when something's not working, but you have the opportunity to give the developmental feedback and the strengths-based feedback on when things are working well too.
Mo Fathelbab:
That's important.
Wendy Miller:
So we have the one-on-ones, and then we also have team retros where the team comes together on a regular cadence to check in. And how is the team overall doing?
We have a tool that's called an engagement team survey, the ETS, which we give bi-weekly to teams, which gives them a measure or something, a data set to look at to say, how is the team performing? Also, another way to benchmark, are things going along smoothly? Are there things we should stop and talk about? And then finally, the last component of the way we work are the handoffs. And so our teams come together in short bursts at time to serve a client. And so how do you stop at the end and make sure that you're codifying what you've learned, you're sharing it back with the clients, you're sharing it back with other team members so the handoffs are smooth.
Mo Fathelbab:
And I understand you guys have 4,000 teams at any time working with clients.
Wendy Miller:
We do. We do.
Mo Fathelbab:
And so how does that come to life at McKinsey in the way that these teams work together? Is that the same as the rituals or is there another component to it?
Wendy Miller:
That's a great question. So our teams come together, they're staffed through professional development managers, and then the partners that are serving the client are also asking for the team to be constructed. We use the data from the ETS survey and from our client surveys to understand the rituals of how teams work well. And so we use all of this as we're crafting a team. So instead of just my intuition on how folks are doing or the performance data, we then have the ability to then look at these analytics so that we can craft stronger teams to meet the needs of our clients.
Mo Fathelbab:
Beautiful. And do you have any other examples of how you've applied this in your organization and the impact, specifically the impact that it's had?
Wendy Miller:
I do. What I think is the power of people analytics and the small but mighty powerhouse that that team can be, especially when your people analytics teams partner with your HR and business leaders, is that you can step back and say, "What is a problem that our business is trying to solve and that we're struggling with?" And so we have a couple of examples that bring this to life. One that might be interesting to folks to hear about is coming out of COVID, our engagement managers were really struggling. They were leaving the firm at a higher rate than we had seen, their satisfaction scores were quite low, and our experience would've told us that this group of colleagues typically leaves because they're in a moment in time where the demand of the job and the trade-off with where they are in their life makes them believe that there's something that they could do where they would have a better lifestyle.
And so without stepping back and looking at the problem with fresh eyes and fresh insight, you would've crafted something to tackle lifestyle issues or way we work like rituals for that group of individuals. Instead, what we found when we did a little bit more digging was that this group was feeling underapprenticed, undermentored, and didn't actually understand what their future looked like or what their path would be at the firm. And we stepped back and we were able to then craft a training program that helped them shape their McKinsey, or what is my professional path at the firm going to be? And I thought it was really an interesting example because our old experience and know-how would have suggested that we did something different, and when we stepped back and we looked at it with fresh eyes, fresh data, new perspective, we realized that there was actually more to the problem and gave us other tools for the solution than we would've just naturally picked up.
Mo Fathelbab:
Thank you. So what do you think holds back other companies from using data effectively in the way that you all have?
Wendy Miller:
Well, that's a great question. I think it can feel a little overwhelming at the start, and I think it would be really easy to think, "Oh, well, McKinsey, of course you are a heavy analytic company, and so you have the skills and the capabilities and the people, the resources dedicated to this."
And so what I would say is that you can start very small and that you could get a few colleagues that understand analytics, a data scientist, and start to play with the answer. And I think then you could craft a way to say, this is where the value is, but it feels like you have to go big and invest in all these resources, and it's a skill set that we may or may not have in our organization. And I would challenge you to say, of course, you have those resources there. So how do you pick off one problem to solve and prove the value of this to get started?
Mo Fathelbab:
Yeah, love it. So anytime we talk about data, AI comes up for me because that's the new hot topic, of course.
Wendy Miller:
Of course.
Mo Fathelbab:
Yes. So how do you think AI will change people analytics and teamwork as a science?
Wendy Miller:
Well, I think AI is the topic that everyone is talking about, and we all know that the potential with AI feels endless. There's a lot of excitement about the potential to change so many things. As we think about it for our teams, I think what we'll see is that AI will generate even more data and even more information. And so the challenge for all of our organizations is to figure out, what do I do with all of this additional data and insight? And so if you can step back and ask yourself, "What is the problem that I need to solve? Or what are my business objectives and can I be specific?" So McKinsey, our business objectives are to serve our clients with great impact, and to develop our people. And so how do I use faster information to then leverage our talent to get faster insights, to enable us to deliver on both of those business objectives?
Mo Fathelbab:
Do you think you will need less people because AI will support your efforts?
Wendy Miller:
I think in some pockets you would anticipate that you will need less people. So the roles that feel more academic, or that's maybe not the right word, for the roles that feel more first level basic data entry, research oriented, you would assume that AI could do that for you. But then again, you're going to need more interface of, okay, take that information, synthesize it, improve it, and draw it to insight. So I think the talent mix will shift, and I do think that there's a lot of hope that there'll be efficiencies, we just haven't seen them at the scale I think of the promise quite yet.
Mo Fathelbab:
McKinsey is known for these deep business insights. And we just heard, I think you just said, AI is also going to provide some of these deep business insights. How do you think AI is going to affect the core business of McKinsey? Will people be able to get these insights from AI and not need a McKinsey?
Wendy Miller:
Oh, that's a great question. I think what people will need more than ever are conceptual problem solvers and strategic thinkers. And they will need people that can help them understand what do I do with the information? What is it telling me, and how do I take action and make a change in my organization? And so I do think that some of the skills and profile for our McKinsey consultants and for all of our organizations will change. We will need people that are better at conceptual problem solving, that are better communicators, that are better strategic problem solvers, and we will need people that can take insight and drive to action. Because at the end of the day, we're all organizations made up of people, and change requires a thoughtful approach. And so the human interaction will still be, I think, quite critical in order to get things done.
Mo Fathelbab:
So zooming out a bit, your employer is just celebrating its hundredth year anniversary. What do you foresee over the next hundred years?
Wendy Miller:
We're very excited about having this century recognition and our next a hundred years. I think McKinsey will stay true to who we are over the next horizon, and we will stay true to the idea of our three things that we're quite proud of. We're proud of the distinctive work that we deliver to our clients, the fact that we have a global and engaged partnership, and that we create a unrivaled environment for our talent.
Mo Fathelbab:
Wendy, tell us more about the use of the word rituals specifically. It's obviously something meaningful to you, but I don't often hear the word rituals in the business context.
Wendy Miller:
Yes. As we think about the way we work, we intentionally use the word ritual with the idea that this is not an initiative, so this isn't something that comes in or comes out, but it's actually part of the core as to who we are and how we work as a team. You could think about it as a habit, but I don't think that actually gives it the enough weight. So a team comes together and has a ritual of how they gather and how they engage with one another, how they provide the feedback, and how they hand things off to a client. So we use that word quite intentionally with the weight that I think the word brings to bear.
Mo Fathelbab:
Wendy, how do you ensure that your people analytics practices are unbiased and ethical?
Wendy Miller:
We spend a lot of time thinking about making sure that the work that we do is ethical and unbiased, and I think it's a risk that we all live in in all of the practices that we have as human resource leaders. We work closely with our risk and our legal team, we anonymize all the data, of course, and then I think you would have, we have an unbiased partner at times that will come in and look at the insights or the operational cues that we're taking and ensure that they feel like they match the standard that we would want to set in ensuring that we have an inclusive environment for all of our colleagues.
Mo Fathelbab:
Wendy, looking at your day to day, how do you stay current with all the latest trends and changes that are happening in people analytics?
Wendy Miller:
I think it's hard to stay current with all the changes because there's so much change happening at a rapid pace, so you have to give yourself a little grace that you're doing the best you can with the job that you've got and how to stay current. I do think that being curious and having an inquisitive mindset helps a lot. I think engaging with the leaders in the topic, you can find great resources through podcasts, through the SHRM conference like this, but talking to individuals that are experts in this space is a real way for me and a way that gives me energy as I think about learning more about new topics.
Mo Fathelbab:
I love what you said about being curious, because something I heard a long time ago is being curious is the opposite of being certain, and when you're certain maybe you're less open to new possibilities.
Wendy Miller:
I think that's really well said. Yes, it keeps life fun, right? You're learning, you're growing. We all want to evolve and grow as professionals, and so I think you could do it in bite-sized pieces and make it more attainable as you're thinking about all the things that you're navigating through your day.
Mo Fathelbab:
I love that. Wendy Miller, thank you so much for this great conversation.
Wendy Miller:
Thank you so much.
Mo Fathelbab:
You can follow People and Strategy podcast wherever you get your podcasts. Also, podcast reviews have a real-world impact on their visibility, so if you like this episode, please give us a review. Finally, you can find all the episodes on our website at SHRM.org/podcasts. Thank you again for listening, and have a great day.