In the fall of 2015, Betsy Rodriguez was the CHRO of the University of Missouri when the university president announced his sudden resignation on national television. The university needed to provide a rapid response to the unfolding scenario, and the board turned to Rodriguez for guidance and advice, highlighting the CHRO’s critical role in navigating executive transitions. In this episode of People and Strategy, host Mo Fathelbab speaks with Rodriguez about the valuable lessons she has learned during her career related to managing C-suite transitions - both well-planned and sudden – and other insights from her time as an HR executive.
In the fall of 2015, Betsy Rodriguez was the CHRO of the University of Missouri when the university president announced his sudden resignation on national television. The university needed to provide a rapid response to the unfolding scenario, and the board turned to Rodriguez for guidance and advice, highlighting the CHRO’s critical role in navigating executive transitions. In this episode of People and Strategy, host Mo Fathelbab speaks with Rodriguez about the valuable lessons she has learned during her career related to managing C-suite transitions - both well-planned and sudden – and other insights from her time as an HR executive.
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Mo Fathelbab:
Welcome to today's episode of People and Strategy. I'm your host, Mo Fathelbab, President of International Facilitators Organization. People and Strategy is a podcast from the SHRM Executive Network, the premier network of executives and thought leaders in the field of human resources. People and Strategy is the podcast delivering in-depth conversations with HR executives and people leaders, to advance the field of human resources by providing engagement and thought leadership to senior executives.
In today's episode, we'll be discussing the topic of CEO transitions and the importance of an organizational succession planning. HR departments, and CHROs specifically, play a central role in helping organizations navigate change, especially unexpected change, such as the sudden departure of a leader. Joining me today to discuss navigating leadership transitions and author of an article on the subject in the People and Strategy Journal, is Betsy Rodriguez. Betsy has led a multi-decade career in HR and served as CHRO for 17 years. She's worked with eight CEOs and presidents in higher education and healthcare, and has participated in four CEO transitions. Betsy, welcome to People and Strategy.
Betsy Rodriguez:
Thanks, Mo. I'm very excited to be here. It's an honor.
Mo Fathelbab:
Well, it's an honor to have you with us. So during your tenure at the University of Missouri, when you were CHRO, there was a sudden and public departure of the president. Can you tell us that story and tell us more about how you handled it?
Betsy Rodriguez:
Sure. Well, in the fall of 2015, I found myself standing next to the president of the University of Missouri in a press conference, it was a national press conference, in which he resigned. I only had about an hour's notice that he was going to do that, and ironically, many of the board members in the room as well as my C-suite colleagues had no notice, and that was the first time they had heard that that was going to happen. It was by far the most difficult situation of my career, but I learned a lot in some very difficult ways. So what led up to that? Why would somebody resign so quickly? Well, the back story is that there were some racial incidents that had occurred on the campus, and this was the largest campus of a four campus system. The system administration where I worked happened to be on that large campus, or right off that campus, but this was actually occurring on the campus.
And at the time, the campus did not have a very large percent of students of color. And so those students were starting to not feel safe, especially the Black students. And they also felt like the administration wasn't doing enough about the issues. Now, there's a whole sidebar that could be another podcast about how not to ignore situations like that and how they escalate, but that's not for today. So for some reason, the students, instead of targeting the campus chancellor, decided to target the system president. And the situation was handled very poorly by all parties. The students ended up truly escalating. There was a tent city built on the quad on the campus. One of the students went on a really serious hunger strike. And they had a whole list of demands, and one of those demands was they insisted on the president of the university resigning.
So while all this is going on, then suddenly the football team got involved. Now, this is Division 1, SCC, lots of money involved. Now donors and fans are getting involved because the football team threatened to boycott. They threatened to not play their next game. And suddenly the national media attention was ESPN and CNN was on campus. So there was just this huge amount of attention, and ultimately the president decided that he would resign. And that's the story of me standing next to him and people not knowing that would happen.
So again, there are so many things that went wrong that could have gone better. But we were obviously forced into an immediate CEO transition, and that's what I wanted to talk about. It was very immediate. It was in a very volatile and very public situation. And as the CHRO, the board and my C-suite colleagues turned to me for advice, so we had to figure out how to get an interim leader in really quickly. Now, one of the things you asked me is how do you handle something so large that happened so quickly? And the first thing I'd say is I didn't sleep very much the first few days.
Mo Fathelbab:
Oh, I'm sure. Yeah.
Betsy Rodriguez:
It was very, very stressful and we had to move very quickly. The second thing is, as the CHRO, I really had to become a leader. I had to try to pull the board together. They had really splintered. Some board members still supported the outgoing president. Others were pushing for his resignation. Some of the C-suite colleagues were just in disarray. They didn't know what to do. So I really had to try to pull people together. And in the end, we did identify an interim leader and we did help deal with some of the student issues. Now, ironically, this isn't the first time I had done an unplanned CEO transition.
Mo Fathelbab:
I was going to ask. Yeah.
Betsy Rodriguez:
Just a few years ago at the same university, in a much less volatile and much less public way, the president had to leave for a family emergency. So I was really dealing with this for the second time. Now, I ended up leaving the university. There was just so much pain and sorrow about what happened, and it was an opportunity to take my career in a different direction. But I did learn some valuable lessons for both planned and unplanned CEO transitions, and that's what led me to write the article.
Mo Fathelbab:
Well, thank you for writing it because it's really eye-opening. And we often think, "This isn't going to happen to me," but we're going to talk about the proverbial what happens if I get hit by a bus? But first, based on this experience, I'm wondering, how does an organization successfully navigate these unexpected, unplanned departures in senior leadership? What would you recommend, or what have you learned?
Betsy Rodriguez:
Well, it sounds counterintuitive, but the first thing I'd say is you have to expect it. I mean, it could happen to any of us, right? It's not likely to happen to all of us, but it is something that you have to anticipate. And I think particularly as CHROs, we're responsible for the succession plan. We work with the CEO and the board to make sure there's a succession plan, but do we include that what if? You mentioned getting hit by a bus. That's the scenario that we have to plan for. And that's a very different planning process than a very thoughtful planned succession. So I think the biggest challenge is that you really have to think about who is the person for that immediate or that interim situation? In my case, it called for a very unique leader. There were very unique situations going on with the publicness of it, with the racial issues. It called for a very unique leader. So I'm not sure that we could have planned for the kind of leader we needed at the time.
So I'm suggesting that you think about what you would do in an unplanned situation, but know that whatever you plan for is not likely the thing that happens. And a lot of organizations have their succession plan, but it's often more than one person and it's often not something the board is ready to just immediately appoint one of those people. So I think you have to think about this as a... This interim person is like a fixer. They come in and they have to fix that immediate situation. And someone you've previously identified might not be the right fit for that. So I think you have to really think about that. Even in an organization where you don't necessarily have as public a situation as I did, you could have a situation with a product failure or a serious customer relations issue, even a problem with the leader themselves.
And I think as CHROs we have to think about what would we do if that happened? And that's really my second point that I want to make, is the CHRO is the linchpin between the C-suite and the board. So you have to make sure that everybody's on the same page so they understand the situation, what's needed for the situation. As CHROs, we're used to this kind of conflicting role, right? We report to the CEO, but we also often are a confidante of the CEO. We have our C-suite colleagues, we have our relationship with the board. If you're good at how you navigate those relationships, it's going to serve you really well in an unplanned situation because people are going to trust you and they're going to want you to be their partner in fixing the situation.
Mo Fathelbab:
That is very helpful. I'm just taking notes specifically as it relates to the interim CEO is there to solve a problem, to fix a problem. And they're not the next CEO. And depending upon what that problem is, you may need somebody different, but you still need to do your planning. I like that.
Betsy Rodriguez:
Absolutely.
Mo Fathelbab:
So you mentioned in your People + Strategy article that C-suite leaders often use CEO transitions to lobby the new leader for more resources or policy changes. How should a CHRO handle those situations?
Betsy Rodriguez:
I call this situation the "grant me one wish," and I've seen it in both planned and unplanned transitions. I've watched my colleagues, they seize the opportunity. "It's a new leader, it's my chance to get something I've wanted." Often it's a way to circumvent traditional decision or approval processes. It actually reminds me of a scene from the Godfather movie. I don't know if you've seen that movie, Mo, but there's a scene in there where it's the Godfather's daughter's wedding, and apparently that was a unique opportunity for friends and foes to have this time with the Godfather and try to ask for maybe a favor or a pardon or something.
What's interesting about that scene is sitting next to the Godfather is the lawyer, who's sort of whispering in his ear about, "That might not be something you want to do," or, "Let me think about how we want to do that." And I think of us as CHROs as that whisperer, that, "Be careful about what you're hearing. There may be other context with that." And so I think as CHROs, we really need to make sure that we prepare the CEO for that.
There's actually a sidebar in my article written by a couple of former executives. One of the things they talk about is things that new CEOs should think about. And the first thing they say is, "Take a seat." And what they mean is the CEO should not make quick decisions, should not jump in and immediately initiate change, but should listen, learn from the organization, and think about what to do. So as CHROs, sometimes we have to step in and say to the CEO, "Whoa, maybe you want to take a seat for a few weeks, a few months, and kind of see how things go."
Mo Fathelbab:
I remember when Oscar Munoz spoke. He's the former chairman of United Airlines. He said the first few months on the job, because it was a turnaround time, he did no decision-making. He just went around and listened and met with all sorts of constituents to really understand what's going on first.
Betsy Rodriguez:
I remember listening to him talk about that and how powerful that was. And he listened to all places in the organization, not just the highest levels of the organization. And that really struck me.
Mo Fathelbab:
Absolutely. So Betsy, your article also mentioned that it's important for HR leaders to keep an open mind during the process. Why is that important? Can you give us an example of when you needed to have an open mind?
Betsy Rodriguez:
Yeah. Boy, this was my most important lesson, and I learned it in a really humbling way. So in my first unplanned transition at the university, the president had to suddenly leave. And we had a little bit of notice, not nearly as much as we would've wanted, but we had a little bit. And he called me and said he had picked the person that he thought would be the best interim. And I was shocked. It was the newest member of our C-suite, and frankly, someone who had very little executive level experience. And I was kind of panicked. I didn't have a great relationship with this person. I didn't really know them very well. And I was pretty concerned. But I really trusted the president. And he had come from several Fortune 500 companies, had a lot of experience as a CEO and also with boards. And he told me that there were several reasons why he thought this. And he didn't think this person was the right person for the permanent role, and that really struck me.
So I swallowed my concerns. I called the potential interim person, and we established a really great partnership. And the former CEO was right. This person was the perfect leader for that time. He led with humility, trust, he created partnerships, and he was just the right person. And I'm glad that I learned that lesson of having an open mind and not prejudging. The next person, as you mentioned earlier, doesn't have to be the new permanent person. They can maybe be the right person for the right time. So I think as the CHRO, if you have concerns, it's important that you air those concerns appropriately, but that you listen and you're open-minded about what can be the possibility. I also think our C-suite colleagues look to us, so how we respond is how they're often going to respond. Sometimes we have information sooner than they do. We often are one of the first people to talk to the new CEO. So I think we set an example by being open-minded and listening to what is possible.
Mo Fathelbab:
Well, they know that you know more. They're looking to you for cues.
Betsy Rodriguez:
Right. That's right.
Mo Fathelbab:
So Betsy, let's go back to your origin story. Your educational background is in psychology, but how did you get started in HR?
Betsy Rodriguez:
Well, I think my story is about following my passion and raising my hand. And let me tell you what I mean by that. So when I was in graduate school, I was getting a doctorate degree in social psychology. And about halfway through the program, I realized, "This isn't my passion. This isn't what I want to do. I love psychology, but I want to see how it applies to business," which is essentially HR, right? But I didn't know that at the time. We didn't have an industrial organizational psychology program, or that would've been the logical fit for me. But I ended up finding a professor in the business school who was an IO psychologist, and he became a wonderful mentor. So I was really glad that I had the opportunity to do that. And he helped me transition into doing research that was more in line with psychology and business, much more in line with my passion.
I also wormed my way into the HR office on campus. I offered to work for free. You can't do that anymore, right? It's not legal. But back then they were happy to let me work for free. And I raised my hand multiple times to do projects that nobody else wanted to do. For example, as a doctoral student, I did a lot of research and I often would write presentations for the leaders to give at conferences. And that got me noticed by the chief HR officer, and he actually ended up hiring me into my first HR job.
He was a wonderful mentor. Just adore him. He also sponsored me for so many important things. But he really taught me a long time ago, before it was really talked about, how important HR is to the business of the organization, that the people strategy supports the business strategy. And that, of course, spoke to my passion, so I was really grateful that I got a chance to talk to him about that. And he supported me in finishing my PhD program. I'm not sure I would've done that if he hadn't done that. Now, the really interesting thing about this story is 20 years later, he had followed my career, and 20 years later he called me and said, "You should come take my job. I'm going to retire and you should come be the CHRO for the university." And that was an amazing experience. I'm really glad I did it.
Now, as we just talked about, it didn't end well, given everything that happened. But it turned out to be a wonderful moment in my career where I had an opportunity to move into healthcare. I'd spent a lot of time in the university settings in a major academic medical center, so it was a perfect fit for me. And I got a chance to join a large health system in St. Louis, and then to come back to Colorado and have the incredible job of CHRO at the Children's Hospital, which is a large, standalone children's health system with a fabulous mission. And so I'm glad I didn't settle for my original path, and I'm glad I raised my hand.
Mo Fathelbab:
What a great story. Thank you for sharing that. And what a great mentor.
Betsy Rodriguez:
Thank you.
Mo Fathelbab:
And it just shows you how one person can really make a difference in your life.
Betsy Rodriguez:
Absolutely, absolutely.
Mo Fathelbab:
Amazing. Based on your career, Betsy, in the different industries, do you have any recommendations to HR practitioners on figuring out whether they are better suited for public service or private institutions?
Betsy Rodriguez:
I think you've got to figure out your why. What's your passion? What drives you? If your passion is the organizational mission, and that's the number one priority for you, you probably want to focus on not-for-profit organizations, or at least a public institution or organization where it really fits your why, it really aligns with your passion. If you're really passionate about HR as a career and you want to see how business and HR fit together and how that people strategy really is part of the organizational strategy, then I think you could be in either public or private.
But I'm going put a warning in here. There are less resources in not-for-profit. And I found that very challenging. I enjoyed that challenge, but it's not for everyone because it can get really frustrating. And I'll admit, there's moments in my career where I got frustrated by those lack of resources. So it's something to be aware of. The last thing I would say is I've had some incredible HR teams in the places that I've worked, and I attribute a lot of that to the mission of the organization. People who will sacrifice some compensation or maybe realize there'll be fewer resources, but want to work for a particular mission are very talented and driven people. And so what I've lacked for in financial resources, I've always been able to make up for in incredible talent,
Mo Fathelbab:
And that's a lesson for all of us. Thank you. So Betsy, you just resigned from Children's Hospital. What is next for you?
Betsy Rodriguez:
Well, I'm in week two of retirement. We'll see how that goes. I don't actually think of myself as retiring from the profession, I think of myself as retiring from full-time employment. And the great part about that for me is I get to focus on things I enjoy doing, like this. So we'll see how I'm going to continue to contribute professionally. Right now, I'm still doing a few hours a week for Children's Hospital. I'm leading an executive search for them.
It's something I really enjoy doing, especially because I'm so passionate about the mission there. So I may do a little bit more of that. I'd like to do some more writing. I may pursue teaching. We'll see. I'm interested in doing a lot of things. I'm very moved by some people who sponsored me in various opportunities, especially some of my mentors. So I'd love to serve in that role for other people as well. So we'll see what happens.
Mo Fathelbab:
All of that sounds amazing in that I know we're going to learn a lot from you, and I will say we're excited for whatever you put out there because it'll be of great benefit to us, and many people will benefit from it. Thank you so much, Betsy-
Betsy Rodriguez:
Thank you, Mo.
Mo Fathelbab:
... for taking the time to speak with us about effectively navigating leadership transitions. We've really appreciated your perspective and thought leadership. And you can follow the People and Strategy podcast wherever you get your podcasts. Also, podcast reviews have a real impact on podcast visibility. So if you enjoyed today's episode, leave a review to help others find the show. Finally, you can find all our episodes on our website at SHRM.org/podcasts. Thank you for listening, and have a great day.